貼圖、程式等,版主可任意修改或刪除,轉貼文章請多用連結,一天 (00:00-23:59) 請只開一個話題,請大家合作,謝謝。09/16/2019 00:34:26     意見庫存
 

外獨會意見交流

 

流浪者的獨白

發言人:Joy, on Apr/17/2019    07:09:09 (IP code: X.X.197.84)
 
在身心俱疲、希望破滅之前,流浪者獨自一人看著【碧海藍天】。影片中男主角說:「潛到海底並不難,最難的是,找到回到水面的理由。」最終;男主角選擇潛到海底與海豚共遊,放任懷有身孕深愛著他的女友在岸上無助地吶喊與哭泣。

流浪者留下了眼淚,寫下了心得,想像著潛到海底的自己找不找得到回到水面的理由。這是流浪者流浪之前的告白。

他決定找一個完全陌生的國度,在筆記本上寫下【海港】兩字,開始籌備旅程。準備了一張回程可修改日期的機票,訂了一間可住兩天的Hostel,背著簡單的行囊,流浪者展開了生平第一次的異鄉之旅。

『林懷民到印度流浪,回來之後他創造了『雲門舞集』。我找了九州,因為九州跟高雄一樣擁有海港,我在高雄土生土長了30年,並不真正認識高雄,也不了解自己。』流浪者簡單交代了他流浪的目的。

指著九州的地圖,流浪者一一敘述了他流浪異鄉60多天的經歷,他說:
「流浪意味著孤單一人置身在完全沒有人認識你的地方;在ㄧ個語言完全不通的國度裡嘗試著生存下去;在點到點之間,時間變得沒有意義,每天你孤獨一人出發,在過程中你所遭遇到的人、事、物,都是不可知的變數。」

我對著幻燈片的文字沉思,流浪者的聲音又緩緩細訴著:
「天哪~我騎著老舊的摩托車從一個海港到下一個海港之間,曾經遭逢傾盆大雨,躲到一棟大樓的客廳,剛好碰到音樂會的排演,女高音彷彿對我獨唱,那種又狼狽又驚喜的遭遇,竟是無法形容的心境。」

我微笑著傾聽著,試圖融入當下。雖然帶著筆記本,我甚麼都沒記下,一切自然而然印入了腦海裡。流浪者繼續說:
「印象最深刻的是,在風雨交加的天候、天人交戰之下仍然堅定按行程出發。就這樣騎了兩三個鐘頭才到了渡輪碼頭,結果卻發現渡輪停開的公告。當下我進退兩難就嚎啕大哭了起來…。」

在我眼前娓娓訴說的是一位38歲高挑俊俏充滿藝術氣息的年輕人。他說他30歲開啟了異國之旅,而且之後就沒有斷續過,每次他都有找到回高雄的理由,每次他都能發現不一樣的自己。現在的他不再汲汲碌碌,他享受當下的生活,甚至專心做好像洗碗、洗衣服這樣的家務事,而等待是一種美好的過程和體驗!
 

Record ID: 1555456149   From: 台灣

回應貼文太多,中間略過,看全文請按這裡

回信 發言人:Golden, on Apr/18/2019    14:49:59 (IP code: X.X.46.31)
 Joy:

"a short term job" is not "an intern job".

What I tried to tell you was that : There are two types of 流浪者, one is us (早期留學生), we knew how to reach/get our goals, we went through hardship and succeeded in our life/live, we have responsibility for ourselves/families/friends/societies/countries/...etc
the other type is those people who don't want to face the real life, escape from real life, they image their goals which do not exist or can't reach/get. they don't have responsibility, 【碧海藍天】影片中男主角 is a good example: 最終;男主角選擇潛到海底與海豚共遊,放任懷有身孕深愛著他的女友在岸上無助地吶喊與哭泣。 he did not know that he has responsibility for his "懷有身孕深愛著他的女友" and his unborn child, if he were my younger brother, I would beat him up.

I have more experience to share, but I think I should stop here before you get angry with me.
 

Record ID: 1555456149R036   From: 美國

回信 發言人:Joy, on Apr/18/2019    15:12:20 (IP code: X.X.37.150)
 Golden,

Thanks for your R036, a very good point of view.

But please tell me why you thought that I should've got angry with you?

 

Record ID: 1555456149R037   From: 台灣

回信 發言人:Golden, on Apr/18/2019    15:59:11 (IP code: X.X.46.31)
 Joy:

You like this very much:
"在身心俱疲、希望破滅之前,流浪者獨自一人看著【碧海藍天】。影片中男主角說:「潛到湛藍的海底並不難,最難的是,能找到回到水面的理由。」最終;男主角選擇潛到海底與海豚共遊,放任懷有身孕深愛著他的女友在岸上無助地吶喊與哭泣。".

I don't show you my criticism on those statements. We have big difference on "idea of value" of above statements. if you read R036 carefully, you may figure out what I tried to tell you. the "Skipping most of experience" means "Skipping most of hardship experience to tell you".
 

Record ID: 1555456149R038   From: 美國

回信 發言人:Joy, on Apr/18/2019    16:04:23 (IP code: X.X.37.150)
 再申明一次:
本文的敘述針對演講會的主題、內容及現場氛圍,如實客觀地記錄。


為了能體會流浪者出發前的心情聯結,我先看了【碧海藍天】這部盧貝松大導演的成名作。
然後,才根據演講會上所聽來及看到的訊息記錄下這篇文章。

如果大家能花大約三小時的時間從頭看到尾看完【碧海藍天】這部電影,也許就能理解盧貝松為何這樣安排電影情節。
男主角賈克,自幼因母親離家出走,父親潛水意外死亡,從此就常潛水跟海豚戲耍,把海豚當作家人看待。
賈克的特質是從小沉默寡言,從不發問,也不愛與人爭...
在童年玩伴奪得世界潛水冠軍後的力邀下,賈克也報名參加了當年度的世界潛水大賽。
他們兩人在練習潛水時,賈克超越了好友的紀錄,潛入了一般人無法潛入的更深的湛藍海底。
好友不聽從專業醫護人員的勸說,硬要潛入到賈克所到達的海底深度,因而喪身海底。
其餘內容大家自己看電影吧。
 

Record ID: 1555456149R039   From: 台灣

回信 發言人:Joy, on Apr/18/2019    16:14:31 (IP code: X.X.37.150)
 Golden,

I would never get angry with you because I always know you meant no harm at me.

Please just share whatever you would as much as you could, I'll appreciate it very much.
 

Record ID: 1555456149R040   From: 台灣

回信 發言人:Joy, on Apr/18/2019    16:26:38 (IP code: X.X.37.150)
 我很喜歡【碧海藍天】這部電影,並且極力推薦大家能撥冗去看。

對於生命,我抱持著一種觀念,我們只能主宰自己的生命及命運,無法決定別人或替別人決定甚麼的。
與其輕易評斷一個人,我選擇了解與接納。

從自己或別人身上,我們會得到一些啟示,好的和不好的都是一體兩面,都能帶給我們省思。
 

Record ID: 1555456149R041   From: 台灣

回信 發言人:Golden, on Apr/19/2019    08:53:36 (IP code: X.X.46.31)
 Joy:

It looks like you can't understand what I try to tell you,there is no point to share more of my “流浪者 experience", I use the other way to make you understand:

These are facts:
1. I went through “hardship’ much more than you can think of.
Do I become a depressed/unhappy guy who like to complain and get angry easily?
No, the other way.

2. I am a very happy guy (I , myself wanted to be a happy guy).
Then, the question, how to be happy?
There are many ways to be happy, one of them: To appreciate what you have now,
I give you one example: One night, we were on the top of a mountain to do
“military night training” during 8 weeks of “student military training”, I watched the streets’ lights far away, I felt that it would be wonderful if I could ride bicycle freely on streets now, I did not feel freedom was so wonderful until I lost it. You may not feel it is wonderful that you can see to read, close your eyes, image you can't open your eyes to see anymore , how do you feel ?

3. This is one of my philosophy: If I can't change the environment, I change my attitude toward the environment (I look at the bright side of things to make me happy).

4. If 3.does not work, then I will become a 流浪者(it happened in 1979), and it is our topic here.

5.others, but they are not our topic.

Now we go to see the other type of 流浪者(he is not really qualified as a 流浪者) “影片中男主角說:「潛到海底並不難,最難的是,找到回到水面的理由。」最終;男主角選擇潛到海底與海豚共遊,放任懷有身孕深愛著他的女友在岸上無助地吶喊與哭泣。

男主角 was selfish and stupid.
Selfish : he did not know he had responsibility for 懷有身孕深愛著他的女友 and his unborn child(he made them)
He did not know he had responsibility for the societies, the societies provided him the 潛水 equipment/supplies , food, medical treatment(he will get healthy problem from 潛水) and others.

Stupid: He will get “潛水 disease”(you may get the information from internet, if you can’t, you may ask me).
He does not need 找到回到水面的理由, whenever he feel hungry or he need replace oxygen tank, he will 回到水面.
潛到海底與海豚共遊 may only make him happy for a short time, then he will feel boring, he will become an unhappy man


林懷民: "流浪意味著孤單一人置身在完全沒有人認識你的地方;在ㄧ個語言完全不通的國度裡嘗試著生存下去."

“Then 林懷民決定找一個完全陌生的國度,在筆記本上寫下【海港】兩字,開始籌備旅程。準備了一張回程可修改日期的機票,訂了一間可住兩天的Hostel,背著簡單的行囊,流浪者展開了生平第一次的異鄉流浪之旅。” he was a traveler not a 流浪者 as he defined.


R007, my elder brother did that since he was a high school student, you may want to listen to 流浪者之歌 , do the same thing as my elder brother did and think of what I want to tell you.

 

Record ID: 1555456149R042   From: 美國

回信 發言人:Joy, on Apr/19/2019    11:28:47 (IP code: X.X.37.170)
 Golden,

Wow, I didn't expect that much of what you've tried to let me understand what you meant to be. And, with so detailed depictions one by one, if I still have missed your points of view, then I am really an idiot.

You're a decent man who's always been holding positive and optimistic demeanor of which the character you've naturally been endowed never seemed too strange to me ever since I had my first conversation with you in this forum.

However, I must say, after carefully reading your post in R042, you really have mistaken several meanings of words and phrases that I'd put in the article of 流浪者的獨白。

I am sorry for not being able to write it clear enough for easy understanding, it's my bad.
And, I guess if you have the doubts and questioning then others probably have the same ones. Let me try to type in Chinese in the next column and explain your point of 5 out there.
 

Record ID: 1555456149R043   From: 台灣

回信 發言人:Joy, on Apr/19/2019    11:42:50 (IP code: X.X.37.170)
 Quote
5.others, but they are not our topic. (以下暫省略)

一一解釋之前,我想先說的是:
在【碧海藍天】這部電影中,盧貝松沒有幫男主角找到回到水面的理由。
但自稱是流浪者的演講者,在這部電影中得到了啟示,他在每次流浪過後總能找到回家的理由。
所以,【碧海藍天】對於他的影響是深刻且有啟發性的,因此演講者極力推薦聽眾觀賞這部電影。

我在這樣的情景下,聽完演講後的第一件事就是觀賞【碧海藍天】。
並在【流浪者的獨白】的第一段就置入電影最令人唏噓感嘆的終結點。
 

Record ID: 1555456149R044   From: 台灣

回信 發言人:Joy, on Apr/19/2019    12:44:26 (IP code: X.X.37.170)
 續R044,
>Now we go to see the other type of 流浪者(he is not really qualified as a 流浪者) “影片中男主角說:「潛到海底並不難,最難的是,找到回到水面的理由。」最終;男主角選擇潛到海底與海豚共遊,放任懷有身孕深愛著他的女友在岸上無助地吶喊與哭泣。


男主角賈克或演講者邱承漢是不是夠格配稱為流浪者,我認為當事人對自己的認知比其他人對他們的認知來得重要。
賈克以潛水工作為生,四處為家,而他的皮夾裡放的家人相片是海豚,他給海豚取名字並收集各種海豚。每次階段性工作完成後,賈克總會找到回家的理由去看他的海豚,並帶禮物給牠們。
後來,他遇見對他心儀的女友...,但好友葬身海底,給他帶來無法承受的衝擊,他又再一次潛入湛藍海底不願浮上水面,直到硬被撐出水面,這時的他已身懷重傷,而且並不知剛交往不久的女友懷有身孕一事...其他細節,還是請有興趣的人自己觀賞電影吧。

邱承漢在艱難的困境中掙扎,【碧海藍天】帶給他很大的震撼。他決定去流浪,所以向林懷民基金會申請流浪經費。他們所定義的流浪者,就是用最簡單的經費,完成一個人獨自在異鄉國度流浪的過程。所以只能訂一晚或兩晚的住宿,及一張回程open可改日期的機票,其它接下來的旅程要靠打工維生,要靠生命的偶遇安排行程...。這是一系列的【流浪者】講座,邱承漢是第一個演講者。



>男主角 was selfish and stupid.
Selfish : he did not know he had responsibility for 懷有身孕深愛著他的女友 and his unborn child(he made them)
He did not know he had responsibility for the societies, the societies provided him the 潛水 equipment/supplies , food, medical treatment(he will get healthy problem from 潛水) and others.


上一段已經解釋了,好友葬身海底,賈克自責而潛入海底不願浮上來,他身受重傷時並不知道女友懷孕一事。我在影片中能得到的暗示是海豚在夢中呼喚著他,而夢醒後的他大概知道自己將不久於人世了...


>Stupid: He will get “潛水 disease”(you may get the information from internet, if you can’t, you may ask me).
He does not need 找到回到水面的理由, whenever he feel hungry or he need replace oxygen tank, he will 回到水面.
潛到海底與海豚共遊 may only make him happy for a short time, then he will feel boring, he will become an unhappy man


的確,賈克潛入海底不願浮出水面而身受重傷,他明明知道那樣,可是他還是找不到浮上水面的理由。他可以跟海豚共遊戲耍一整個晚上直到日出,如果你有看【碧海藍天】的話,你還會知道人們形容賈克擁有海豚、鯨魚般的肺。壓倒賈克的最後一根稻草就是眼見好友葬身海底而只能含淚送別。

賈克是不是自私又愚蠢的人也是從電影中的一開頭就能看出了,他不是的。
 

Record ID: 1555456149R045   From: 台灣

回信 發言人:Golden, on Apr/19/2019    12:48:00 (IP code: X.X.46.31)
 Joy:

Can you type "idea of value"and "idea of life" in Chinese (three words) for me?

I guided many of my friends to be happy with life/work/..., my friends were depressed sometime, I am the guy should be depressed(went through so many hardship and things were unfair to me), but I am a very happy guy, I know the reasons, but I can't make them same as me, I can only help them case by case(if they were depressed, I would make them to feel better in each case). Even in a face to face long conversation, it is hard for me to make my friends to understand what I want them to build their own "idea of value" "idea of life" ...(those things are common sense to me, but my friends don't understand what do those things really mean, they can only repeat the definitions got from textbooks or internet).

R007, my elder brother did that since he was a high school student, you may want to listen to 流浪者之歌 , do the same thing as my elder brother did, you may get one type of happiness you never have before.
 

Record ID: 1555456149R046   From: 美國

回信 發言人:Joy, on Apr/19/2019    12:58:59 (IP code: X.X.37.170)
 
>林懷民: "流浪意味著孤單一人置身在完全沒有人認識你的地方;在ㄧ個語言完全不通的國度裡嘗試著生存下去."

>“Then 林懷民決定找一個完全陌生的國度,在筆記本上寫下【海港】兩字,開始籌備旅程。準備了一張回程可修改日期的機票,訂了一間可住兩天的Hostel,背著簡單的行囊,流浪者展開了生平第一次的異鄉流浪之旅。” he was a traveler not a 流浪者 as he defined.


以上兩段敘述,都不是林懷民,而是邱承漢。也是我這篇【流浪者的獨白】中所描述的主角--邱承漢。是不是夠格當個流浪者,我在R045已有說明了。如果邱承漢不夠格,他就不會申請到林懷民基金會的流浪基金,如果他不夠格當個流浪者,【流浪者】講座,就不會由他來開啟序幕。


回答之前,我重新看了R028,一次又一次地,並且邀請我先生一起看,我們不了解為何文章會造成讀者的誤解。謝謝Golden一一點出了質疑,讓我有機會一一說明。^__^
 

Record ID: 1555456149R047   From: 台灣

回信 發言人:Joy, on Apr/19/2019    13:12:06 (IP code: X.X.37.170)
 >Can you type "idea of value" and "idea of value" in Chinese (three words) for me?

"idea of value"==>價值的理念/觀念/理想...。

"idea of value"==>生活的理念/觀念/理想...。

問我這個英語三腳貓的中文翻譯,我只能做到以上的解釋了。^^
 

Record ID: 1555456149R048   From: 台灣

回信 發言人:Joy, on Apr/19/2019    13:22:16 (IP code: X.X.37.170)
 R048更正:
>Can you type "idea of value" and "idea of life" in Chinese (three words) for me?

"idea of value"==>價值的理念/觀念/理想...。

"idea of life"==>生活的理念/觀念/理想...。

很抱歉,copy過程中,出了差錯。^^
 

Record ID: 1555456149R049   From: 台灣

回信 發言人:Joy, on Apr/19/2019    13:25:48 (IP code: X.X.37.170)
 Geez, correction again.

"idea of value"==>價值觀

"idea of life"==>生活觀

我忘了只能翻成三個字。 Sorry again.
 

Record ID: 1555456149R050   From: 台灣

回信 發言人:Golden, on Apr/19/2019    13:54:31 (IP code: X.X.46.31)
 Joy:


Thank you, they are what I want, 價值觀, 人生觀 and the base of happiness are the things I really want to tell you(later), not that stupid movie.
 

Record ID: 1555456149R051   From: 美國

回信 發言人:Golden, on Apr/20/2019    10:54:20 (IP code: X.X.46.31)
 Joy:

I don't discuss 價值觀 deeply(it need go through many 範疇 and make people confused easily), I just introduce 價值觀 briefly. 價值觀 can be formed naturally (human/animals have at least 4 intrinsic motivations), it can also be formed by deep thinking.

There are some of my 價值觀(which relate to the topic “流浪者”);
1 Consideration for my families/friends/…(but not the term of families/friends).
2. Do the habits (but not the term of habit).
3. Truth is Truth, false is false, no one(including the authorities in the fields , my researching adviser/bosses , teachers/professors, my father, 中國國民黨...etc) can make me believe “false is truth”.

This movie 碧海藍天 is just a movie, 男主角 does not exist in the real life, the story wrote by a author who might not have experience of 潛水 (me either). But the statements :”影片中男主角說:「潛到海底並不難,最難的是,找到回到水面的理由。」最終;男主角選擇潛到海底與海豚共遊,放任懷有身孕深愛著他的女友在岸上無助地吶喊與哭泣” which was against my 價值觀(1)

Habit can be changed or created, our bodies don't let us do the same habit continually (our bodies will get boring, it is bodies’ nature), I had/have many habits:
playing Chinese chess/chess/soccer/rugby/bridge/martial art,lifting weight,listening music, sing,do electronic project, watching 3D movies,reading books, think deeply,working in my garden,..etc, I even consider my work is my habit, I am happy to do any of my habit and I am good at playing/doing all of my habits, there is no way that to do/play my habits will be against any of my 價值觀.
The habit of “潛到海底與海豚共遊” should not lead to “放任懷有身孕深愛著他的女友在岸上無助地吶喊與哭泣”

I don't like to travel/drive/take airplane, but my 價值觀(3), I became 流浪者 6 times(went through many hardship(I almost got killed more than one time)), now I have so many things you will not believe, you just need believe one thing : I am a very happy guy.

I just want to tell you one thing: Build your own 價值觀 which can make you happy.

“Build your own 價值觀 which can make you happy” is a big topic, I hope that you can figure it out yourself.

PS: 潛水 disease has nothing to do with “海豚、鯨魚般的肺”.
 

Record ID: 1555456149R052   From: 美國

回信 發言人:Joy, on Apr/20/2019    11:56:58 (IP code: X.X.53.23)
 >This movie 碧海藍天 is just a movie, 男主角 does not exist in the real life, the story wrote by a author who might not have experience of 潛水 (me either). But the statements :”影片中男主角說:「潛到海底並不難,最難的是,找到回到水面的理由。」最終;男主角選擇潛到海底與海豚共遊,放任懷有身孕深愛著他的女友在岸上無助地吶喊與哭泣” which was against my 價值觀(1)


賈克知道自己將不久於人世(請參考R045),他的選擇有兩點解釋:
1. 像貓一樣的行為,找個安靜隱密的地方靜靜地等待死亡。
2. 潛到海底隱密的地方,靜靜地陪伴他的家人海豚。

他最後的行為不是選擇自殺,而是選擇避免在女友面前死亡,選擇與水底的家人團聚,並靜靜死去。
 

Record ID: 1555456149R053   From: 台灣

回信 發言人:Joy, on Apr/20/2019    12:15:00 (IP code: X.X.53.23)
 Golden,

Thanks for sharing your "idea of value" and life experiences with us.
And I believe what you'd gone through as a 流浪者 six times in your life has actually made you become a very happy and confident self-person.

I am still exploring myself-being, and your sharing in R052 which I appreciate very much is profoundly impressive and very helpful.
 

Record ID: 1555456149R054   From: 台灣

回信 發言人:Joy, on Apr/22/2019    12:08:18 (IP code: X.X.197.253)
 本來我不能用Firefox在外獨貼文,後來我找到了解決方式:

1.開啟Firefox==>點電腦右上方最右邊三條線的功能鍵,開啟選單

2.點選"內容封鎖",點選"自訂",其他留白(什麼都不要勾選)

3.傳送 "Do not track"...==>點選"總是"

4.Cookie與網站資料...==>點選"關閉Firefox時清除Cookie及網站資料(其餘留白)

5.網址列==>點選 "開啟分頁"

6.權限 ==>點選 "封鎖彈出式視窗",後再點選"例外網站"在"網站網址"輸入:http://www.1949er.org再按"允許"。
這時你會看到網站框框出現:http://www.1949et.org 允許;按==> "儲存變更"

7.安全性 ==>點選 "封鎖危險及詐騙內容"(其餘留白)

8.憑證 ==>點選 "自動選擇一組憑證" (其餘留白)

這是我自己摸索出來的,有效!終於可在外獨成功貼文、貼歌、貼圖了。


如果還是有障礙,不能貼文,繼續以下步驟:

點電腦中央最上方有“!www.1949er.org網址”的框框,點“!”,再點“權限”,點“例外網站”查看有沒有出現外獨網址。若無,重新輸入www.1949er.org再按“儲存變更”即可了。

也就是右上方功能選單及中央上方有外獨網址的框框,兩邊都有權限設定,兩邊的“例外網站”都要輸入www.1949er.org才行。
 

Record ID: 1555456149R055   From: 台灣

本篇到此告一段落———版主

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