貼圖、程式等,版主可任意修改或刪除,轉貼文章請多用連結,一天 (00:00-23:59) 請只開一個話題,請大家合作,謝謝。08/18/2019 07:17:14     意見庫存
 

外獨會意見交流

 

400年前的世界

發言人:灨林老師, on Aug/10/2019    09:26:51 (IP code: X.X.201.83)
 不到400年前的中國皇帝,明永曆受洗成了天主教徒,還取了個西洋名字。

好丟臉l喔!
 

Record ID: 1565400411   From: 美國

回信 發言人:灨林老師, on Aug/10/2019    09:29:33 (IP code: X.X.201.83)
 四百年前的美國,盡是一些土人,白人少到不行,天天被燒殺擄掠。

好丟臉喔!
 

Record ID: 1565400411R001   From: 美國

回信 發言人:灨林老師, on Aug/10/2019    09:36:44 (IP code: X.X.201.83)
 400年前的俄國,Ivan the Terrible 主政初期,俄國還活在medieval times,民不聊生。

好丟臉喔!
 

Record ID: 1565400411R002   From: 美國

回信 發言人:笑笑就好, on Aug/10/2019    09:37:57 (IP code: X.X.242.178)
 有個韓國人至聖先師號稱孔子的
別名叫「Johnnie」,因為周遊列國
所以叫Johnnie Walker
也沒聽支那人說好丟臉喔!
 

Record ID: 1565400411R003   From: 美國

回信 發言人:灨林老師, on Aug/10/2019    09:43:19 (IP code: X.X.201.83)
 400年前的英國臭到不行,人民跟中國人一樣沒天天洗澡,在到達倫敦外就聞到一股臭氣。

好丟臉喔!
 

Record ID: 1565400411R004   From: 美國

回信 發言人:灨林老師, on Aug/10/2019    09:47:16 (IP code: X.X.201.83)
 400年前的台灣


荷蘭人1624年在大員(今台南安平)建造熱蘭遮市,中研院台灣史研究所今公布學者根據荷蘭最新出土的「熱蘭遮市地籍表」相關研究,發現當年熱蘭遮市是個由來自各地華人和荷人共居的多語言社會,顯現強烈國際性。這份地籍表也是顯現西方城市規畫對台影響最早的明確資料。

台史所助研究員鄭維中指出,該地籍表有很清楚的街廓名、門牌號碼及大量唐人與荷人姓名,顯現共有320戶,其中20戶是荷人,其他是唐人登記名字。有趣的是,眾多唐人屋僅由70多位唐人擁有,部分房舍由少數唐人與荷人所有,很可能是租給僑居商人,「就像現在用來候機的高級飯店」。
 

Record ID: 1565400411R005   From: 美國

回信 發言人:灨林老師, on Aug/10/2019    09:48:20 (IP code: X.X.201.83)
 400年前的台灣


鄭維中也找到其中31名唐人的生活情況,發現跟荷人有密切關係的或有多棟地產者多半是荷蘭翻譯員,大多來自東南亞,有1/3會講葡萄亞語、西班牙語,還有少數是日本華僑,會講日語,居住在原住民村落者主要用馬來語溝通,共同相通的語言則是閩南語。

在商業方面,鄭維中發現,這些唐人最常去的貿易地點是越南南方和柬埔寨,也有些因為從印尼雅加達來,和東南亞各地的唐人街很熟。大家都和中國有密切關係,與福建廈門常往來。他還發現,其中一位從雅加達移民來台的唐人,在台開墾甘蔗田並製作蔗糖樣本給雅加達商人看,可說是在台從事糖業的最早紀錄。

成功大學建築系助理教授黃恩宇復原「市鎮測繪圖」,展現熱蘭遮市由數條主要街道構成的街廓布局,和日耳曼土地測量師司馬爾卡頓1648年繪製的熱蘭遮地圖對照,幾乎完全符合,也顯現今日台南安平老街區仍是17世紀街道布局樣貌,只是寬度略窄。他表示,根據考察,現在安平丹丹漢堡前可能是古荷蘭橋的位置,相關資料將有助未來考古所需。

荷蘭萊頓大學歷史研究所包樂史指出,熱蘭遮城在1624年前原本屬於東南亞文化圈,唐人不多,但在荷人建城後,成為主要是華人的城市,也顯出台灣最早東亞人和西洋人一起住的歷史。他說,當年荷人用當時最新穎的城市計畫規畫此城,是很現代的城市,最難得的是,現在仍可看出那計畫。

荷蘭國際遺產活動中心研究員廉斯卓是找到熱蘭遮市地籍表的功臣,他說原本要做模里西斯島的度度鳥研究,在阿姆斯特丹市政檔案館查看相關公證人檔案時,發現一本記事本倒過來看時,竟可辨識出原認定佚失的熱蘭遮市地籍表。

他說,這表是位荷蘭商務員在1643至47年期間奉大員長官之命來台繪製,好未來準備在台抽稅,但該員在返荷途中過世,僅遺幼子,歸叔叔和公證人監護。資料最後陰錯陽差未編碼,被複寫其他私人資料,埋藏400年。
 

Record ID: 1565400411R006   From: 美國

回信 發言人:灨林老師, on Aug/10/2019    09:52:39 (IP code: X.X.201.83)
 其實400年前的世界有很重要嗎?


400年後的中國人不是一樣被奴役著?

反觀英、美、俄 這四百年來曾經或現在當著世界強權。 中國有嗎?

而台灣在400年後讓中國頭痛不已,天天捏懶趴大叫要血洗,結果呢?

屁放了一大堆,也沒看到一直蒼蠅飛過來。

那麼,400年前的台灣與四百年後的今天,有很大的差別嗎?

笑~
 

Record ID: 1565400411R007   From: 美國

回信 發言人:高人, on Aug/10/2019    10:00:34 (IP code: X.X.27.52)
 疳淋老师演日本AV被中出不丢脸吗? 

Record ID: 1565400411R008   From: 美國

回信 發言人:vvvv, on Aug/10/2019    10:06:15 (IP code: X.X.239.212)
 中國人水準實在⋯⋯唉

樓上示範得一般一般
 

Record ID: 1565400411R009   From: 台灣

回信 發言人:笑笑就好, on Aug/10/2019    10:32:55 (IP code: X.X.242.178)
 在美國超市偷乾電池及奶罩
就不丟臉?
 

Record ID: 1565400411R010   From: 美國

回信 發言人:灨林老師, on Aug/10/2019    10:39:50 (IP code: X.X.227.21)
 008

羔子,

猊老婆有天天回家睡覺嗎?
 

Record ID: 1565400411R011   From: 美國

回信 發言人:ace, on Aug/10/2019    14:59:37 (IP code: X.X.202.191)
 中國的反商環境

民間資本的蓄積、買低賣高的習慣、新興成金者商人的誇示、全部犯怒支配階級、學者官僚-近乎引起與苦勞庶民同等的憤慨。不希望至全体市場經濟停止間、官僚常介入反對個々商人、通過沒收彼資產或非難彼的事業。支那臣民的對外貿易、自然在官僚目中非常可疑的、單純因為此比較不在彼制御範圍。
The accumulation of private capital, the practice of buying cheap and selling dear, the ostentation of the nouveau riche merchant, all offended the elite, scholarly bureaucrats-almost as much as they aroused the resentment of the toiling masses. While not wishing to bring the entire market economy to a halt, the mandarins often intervened against individual merchants by confiscating their property or banning their business. Foreign trade by Chinese subjects must have seemed even more dubious to mandarin eyes, simply because it was less under their control.

但、欠乏官界激勵、商人及其他起業家不可能成功;甚至取得巨富者有向土地及教育消費的傾向、非前產業開發的投資。同樣的、海外貿易及漁業的禁止、取除繼續的景氣擴大一別的潛在的刺激;
Yet without official encouragement, merchants and other entrepreneurs could not thrive; and even those who did acquire wealth tended to spend it on land and education, rather than investing in protoindustrial development. Similarly, the banning of overseas trade and fishing took away another potential stimulus to sustained economic expansion;

回教世界的榨取及保守

体制全体、類似明國的、漸々受苦於彼對創意、異議、及商業態度之若干集中化、專制的、及嚴正正統的欠陷。
The system as a whole, like that of Ming China, increasingly suffered from some of the defects of being centralized, despotic, and severely orthodox in its attitude toward initiative, dissent, and commerce.

1550年以後領土擴大及付隨戰利品的不足、與莫大的價格上昇同時、引起皇帝的親衛隊員轉向內部略奪。商人及起業家(近乎全部是外國人)、初期被獎勵、現在發見彼受入予測不可能的課稅及財產之徹底的押收。高稅破滅貿易及激減都市人口。多少受影響的最惡事態、是農民的土地及家畜被兵士掠奪。在狀況惡化之際、民間役員亦轉向強奪、要求賄賂及没収在庫商品。
The lack of territorial expansion and accompanying booty after 1550, together with the vast rise in prices, caused discontented janissaries to turn to internal plunder. Merchants and entrepreneurs (nearly all of whom were foreigners), who earlier had been encouraged, now found themselves subject to unpredictable taxes and outright seizures of property. Even higher dues ruined trade and depopulated towns. Perhaps worst affected of all were the peasants, whose lands and stock were preyed upon by the soldiers. As the situation deteriorated, civilian officials also turned to plunder, demanding bribes and confiscating stocks of goods.

經濟概念繼續原始的:西洋商品的輸入被欲求、但輸出被禁止;同業組合妨礙革新及「資本主義的」製作者芽出的努力被支援;商人之宗教的批判強化。輕蔑歐州思想及實行、土耳古人辭退於採用新的方法割切傳染病;
Economic notions remained primitive: imports of western wares were desired, but exports were forbidden; the guilds were supported in their efforts to check innovation and the rise of "capitalist" producers; religious criticism of traders intensified. Contemptuous of European ideas and practices, the Turks declined to adopt newer methods for containing plagues;

印度的風俗束縛

都會自身、有相當數目的商人、活發的市場、及印度商賣家族間對製造、貿易、及信用的態度、可作成W氏新教徒倫理的優秀之例。對照此、成為英國帝國主義犧牲者前、準備經濟「離陸」企業家的社會之繪、有對眾多印度生活中固有的遅延要因之陰鬱描寫。印度宗教禁忌之絕對的嚴密、不利於現代化的作用:齧歯動物及昆蟲不得被殺害、故膨大量的食料品被失去;處理廢棄物及排泄物之社會的慣習、導向一永久非衛生的狀況、鼠蹊腺腫流行的溫床;世襲的四姓制絞殺創意、滴注儀式、及限定市場;及最高階級的僧族對印度土侯的影響力、意味反啟蒙主義在最高水準上有效的。
In the towns themselves there were very considerable numbers of merchants, bustling markets, and attitude toward manufacture, trade and credit among Hindu business families which would make them excellent examples of Weber's Protestant ethic. As against this picture of an entrepreneurial society just ready for economic "takeoff" before it became a victim of British imperialism, there are the gloomier portrayals of the many indigenous retarding factors in Indian life. The sheer rigidity of Hindu religious taboos militated against modernization: rodents and insects could not be killed, so vast amount of foodstuffs were lost; social mores about handling refuse and excreta led to permanent insanitary conditions, a breeding ground for bubonic plagues; the caste system throttled initiative, instilled ritual, and restricted the market; and the influence wielded over Indian local rulers by the Brahman priests meant that this obscurantism was effective at the highest level.

華麗宮廷、此誇示的消費之規模、可能被佛王朝宮殿的太陽王視為過度。數千人的召使及居後寄食者、華美的衣服及寶石及後宮及動物園、廣大配列的護衛警護、只可能被組織的略奪機械的創造支付。収税吏、被要求提供固定金額於彼主人、同樣不容赦的對百姓及商人略奪;勿論收穫或貿易狀態、金錢必須納入。
The brilliant courts were centers of conspicuous consumption on a scale which the Sun King at Versailles might have thought excessive. Thousands of servants and hangers-on, extravagant clothes and jewels and harems and menageries, vast arrays of bodyguards, could be paid for only by the creation of a systematic plunder machine. Tax collectors, required to provide fixed sums for their masters, preyed mercilessly upon peasant and merchant alike; whatever the state of the harvest or trade, the money had to come in.

露國的武力及專制

越多民族被征服、越多内部軋轢及反亂的可能性。又一層弱點、是不限於特定從西歐的借入、露國殘留於技術的落後及經濟的低開發。氣候的兩極端及莫大距離及貧弱通信、部分的說明、但嚴格社會的欠陷亦說明:皇帝的軍事絕對主義、正教會手中的教育獨占、官僚機構的易買收及予測不可能、農奴制的施行、引起農業的封建化及靜態化。
The more peoples that were conquered, the greater was the likelihood of internal dissension and revolt. A further weakness was that despite certain borrowings from the West, Russia remained technologically backward and economically underdeveloped. Extremes of climate and the enormous distances and poor communications partly accounted for this, but so also did severe social defects: the military absolutism of the czars, the monopoly of education in the hands of the Orthodox Church, the venality and unpredictability of the bureaucracy, and the institution of serfdom, which made agriculture feudal and static.

從歐州十分的借入、賦予政權保護自身的武裝實力、同時可能的西洋社會及政治的「現代化」全部被堅牢的抵抗;舉一例、露國的外國人與本國人被分離、只為了防止轉覆的影響。
Enough had been borrowed from Europe to give the regime the armed strength to preserve itself, while all possibility of western social and political "modernization" was firmly resisted; foreigners in Russia, for example, were segregated from the natives in order to prevent subversive influences.

日本的分裂競爭

在支那一統合官僚機構運營、在日本權力落入基於氏族的封建領主手中、及天皇不過一符牒象徵。14世紀既存的中央集權制已被一族同族間一定的反目、類似英諸島北部同等間的紛爭、取替。此非貿易業者及商人理想的狀況、但此不妨害相當量的經濟活動。海上、陸上、起業家隣接軍閥及軍事的冒險家、各個從東亞的海運業檢出利益。
Whereas China was run by a unified bureaucracy, power in Japan lay in the hands of clan-based feudal lordships and the emperor was but a cipher. The centralized rule which had existed in the fourteenth century had been replaced by a constant feuding between the clans-akin, as it were, to the strife among their equivalent in Scotland. This was not the ideal circumstance for traders and merchants, but it did not check a very considerable amount of economic activity. At sea, as on land, entrepreneurs jostled with warlords and military adventurers, each of whom detected profit in the East Asian maritime trade.

活發荒天的場面、迅速的被歐州輸入軍備的發達使用變更。類似世界他場所發生的、權力向所有徵發一大操作鐵砲軍隊及、最重要的、大砲資源的個人或團体落下。
This lively if turbulent scene was soon to be altered by the growing use of imported European armaments. As was happening elsewhere in the world, power gravitated toward those individuals or groups who possessed the resources to commandeer a larger musket-bearing army and, most important of all, cannon.

徳川一族達成不被挑戰支配之決意:故、外國人及基督徒被視為潛在的破壞。但、其他封建領主亦被視為、此是彼被要求在首都過半年的理由、及在6個月間彼被許可歸鄉時、彼的家族有必要殘留於江戶(東京)之理由、實質的人質化。
Tokugawa clan's determination to achieve unchallenged control: foreigners and Christians were thus regarded as potentially subversive. But so, too, were other feudal lords, which is why they were required to spend half the year in the capital; and why, during the six months they were allowed to reside on their estates, their families had to remain at Yedo (Tokyo), virtually hostages.

此重要的均一性、不自体抑制經濟發展- 又、此問題、未防止傑出藝術的業績。全國的平和對貿易良好、都會及全体人口增大、現金支付的增加運用促使商人及銀行家更重要。但、後者決不許可彼在伊太利、荷蘭、及英國取得的社會及政治的卓越性、及日本人明白的不可能習得及採用他處發展之新的技術及產業的開發。
This important uniformity did not, of itself, throttle economic development-nor, for that matter, did it prevent outstanding artistic achievements. Nationwide peace was good for trade, the towns and overall population were growing, and the increasing use of cash payments made merchants and bankers more important. The latter, however, were never permitted the social and political prominence they gained in Italy, the Netherlands, and Britain, and the Japanese were obviously unable to learn about, and adopt, new technological and industrial developments that were occurring elsewhere.

歐州奇蹟: 不斷的多樣化競爭+發達的商業

政治的多樣性、歐州主要應感謝地理學。無騎手帝國可課賦迅速的支配權之巨大平原;及無類似恒河、北非最長級河川、複數河之間、黃河、長江之幅廣及肥沃川地帶、提供食物於苦勞及容易被征服的農民大衆。歐州的景色是分裂的、山脈及大森林隔離谷內散亂的人口中心;及彼的氣候相當的從南北至東西變化。
For this political diversity Europe had largely to thank its geography. There were no enormous plains over which an empire of horsemen could impose its swift dominion; nor were there broad and fertile river zones like those around the Ganges, Nile, Tigris, and Euphrates, Yellow and Yangtze, providing the food for masses of toiling and easily conquerable peasants. Europe's landscape was much more fractured, with mountain ranges and large forests separating the scattered population centers in the valleys; and its climate altered considerably from north to south and west to east.

第一、此兩方促使統一支配設立的困難化、甚至通過一強力及斷固的軍閥、及最小化大陸被一類似蒙古游牧民的外力侵略之可能性。逆言之、此雜色的景色、激勵分散化權力的成長及繼續的存在、
For a start, it both made difficult the establishment of unified control, even by a powerful and determined warlord, and minimized the possibility that the continent could be overrun by a external force like the Mongol hordes. Conversely, this variegated landscape encouraged the growth, and the continued existence, of decentralized power,

歐州的氣候差別、導向區別的製品、適合交換;及既時的、在市場關係進展中、
Europe's differentiated climate led to differentiated products, suitable for exchange; and in time, as market relations developed,

商品之定期的長距離交換、促進國際規模的為替手續、一信用掛賣制度、及銀行業務的成長。商業信用及保險請求書的現行存在、満喫一經濟情勢基本的予測性、既民間商人在世界他處例外的或決不享受的。
Regular long-distance exchanges of wares in turn encouraged the growth of bills of exchange, a credit system, and banking on an international scale. The very existence of mercantile credit, and then of bills of insurance, pointed to a basic predictability of economic conditions which private traders had hitherto rarely, if ever, enjoyed anywhere in the world.

事實上、歐州內常有一部諸侯及領主有意容許商人及彼的筋道、甚至在他人略奪及追放伸人時、及記錄顯示、被壓迫的猶太商人、破產的荷蘭織物工匠、被迫害的新教徒、載著彼的專門知識移民。
The fact was that in Europe there were always some princes and local lords willing to tolerate merchants and their ways even when others plundered and expelled them; and, as the record shows, oppressed Jewish traders, ruined Flemish textile workers, persecuted Huguenots, moved on and took their expertise with them.

一拒否債務返濟的君主、必然在融資資金調達上有巨大難題、既在次的戰爭脅威及需要資金迅速裝備彼的軍隊及艦隊時。銀行家及武器商人及職人、是必須事項、非社會的周邊裝置。徐々、不規則的、歐州大部分政權進入一與市場經濟共生的關係、提供彼國內秩序及(甚至對外國人)不獨斷的法律制度、及從貿易獲得的增大利益受取課稅。遠々在A・S氏造出正確的語前、若干西歐社會的統治者已暗默認識「一國從最低野蠻性達成最高度富裕的必須條件、是平和、安易的稅金、及被容認的司法執行…」
A monarch who repudiated his debts would have immense difficulties raising a loan when the next war threatened and funds were quickly needed to equip his armies and fleets. Bankers and arms dealers and artisans were essential, not peripheral, members of society. Gradually, unevenly, most of the regimes of Europe entered into a symbiotic relationship with the market economy, providing for its domestic order and a nonarbitrary legal system (even for foreigners), and receiving in taxes a share of the growing profits from trade. Long before Adam Smith had coined the exact words, the rulers of certain societies of western Europe were tacitly recognizing that "little else is requisite to carry a state of the highest degree of opulence from the lowest barbarism, but peace, easy taxes, and tolerable administration of justice..."

競爭者之單純存在、及交戰中團体間恨重感情、明白的存在於日本、印度及其他場所、但此自己不得防止最終的統一。歐州的迴異性是各個對抗勢力有能力取得接觸新的軍事技巧、故無單一勢力可占有決定的優勢。
The simple existence of competitors, and of bitter feelings between warring groups, was evident in Japan, India, and elsewhere, but that of itself had not prevented eventual unification. Europe was different in that each of the rival forces was able to gain access to the new military techniques, so that no single power ever possessed the decisive edge.

伸長意味、此經濟及政治的頑固必然意味同樣文化及觀念形態的正統之欠如-既質問、論爭、實驗的自由、對改善的可能性之信賴、對實用、非抽象、的關心、一無視官吏慣例、宗教教義、及傳統的民間傳承的合理主義。
By extension, this lack of economic and political rigidity would imply a similar lack of cultural and ideological orthodoxy-that is, freedom to inquire, to dispute, to experiment, a belief in the possibilities of improvement, a concern for the practical rather than the abstract, a rationalism which defied mandarin codes, religious dogma, and traditional folklore.

區別歐州系船長、船員、及探險家的是彼占有可達成彼野心的船艦及火力、及彼從一競爭、冒險、及企業家精神普遍化的政治環境由來。
What distinguished the captains, crews, and explorers of Europe was that they possessed the ships and the firepower with which to achieve their ambitions, and that they came from a political environment in which competition, risk, and entrepreneurship were prevalent.

~Paul Kennedy THE RISE AND FALL OF THE GREAT POWERS『大國興亡史』
 

Record ID: 1565400411R012   From: 台灣

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